What is Social Permitting with Houda Elyazgi

How do you ensure that you secure the community buy-in? Social permitting is a process of engaging the public to gather their support. Whether you’re a nonprofit or a company that’s building an organization or a philanthropic organization, or if you’re even constructing a wind farm, you need a process of engagement to ensure that you have goodwill and Community support to ensure that your project is a success.  


Converation Highlights

{05:30} How to build a movement
06:25} Four-step program for the social permitting process
13:20} The importance of hearing from the community
15:30} The history of Black Wallstreet and how to turn a protestor into an advocate
21:30} Don’t be afraid to go back to the drawing board if the community needs a shift.
31:30} What makes Oklahoma special

Notable Quotes

You can take something that could have potentially become a pitfall and turn it into a major opportunity for dialogue and a potential opportunity to turn critics into advocates.

A lot of nonprofits are so unwilling or slow to adopt new processes, new procedures, that it prevents them from changing with the times and becoming flexible and doing what needs to be done.

The community needs to understand what is the goal that you're trying to achieve.

You can't be afraid to go back to the drawing board.

Houda Elyazgi Bio

Houda is the Chief Client Officer at Saxum, an integrated digital agency obsessed with good. Houda is committed to making the world better through her work in diversity, equality, education, and public policy, which makes her an invaluable leader in Saxum’s issue-based approach to strategic communications. 

Over the past 14 years, clients in the nonprofit, education, healthcare, consumer, and financial sectors have benefited from Houda’s strategic communication expertise, she has worked with numerous national foundations and nonprofits, including Walton Family Foundation, The Giving Pledge Learning Series, FWD.us, The Cherokee Nation and George Kaiser Family Foundation. Houda is an innovative and visionary thinker who can craft messages and campaigns that resonate with communities and help drive results for clients. She leads Saxum’s client service team to successfully execute issue-based campaigns. Houda also oversees Saxum’s Step Up Program which offers in-kind services to nonprofits across the nation, distributing more than $1 million in pro bono support over the last decade.


Nonprofit Architect Links

Full Transcript

Hey, welcome back to the show today. I’m here with Houda Elyazgi. How are you doing today? 

I’m great; thanks for having me, Travis; how are you? 

I’m doing fabulous for those that follow me regularly. I’m on a road trip. I’ve connected with Houda, and she’s in Oklahoma City. What are you going to do? 

We’ve traded places. I love it. 

I’m on the road, and she’s there, so we missed each other. But I was looking forward to meeting her in person when I got back into town. Why don’t you tell us about who you are and what you do? 

Yeah, I’m just glad to be here with you today. I am the chief client officer at Saxon’s, a purpose-driven agency. We’re based in Oklahoma City, but we serve clients across the United States, and I am very passionate about nonprofits and philanthropic organizations. 

I’ve been working at Saxum For the last 15 years. I have had the great privilege and honor of working with hundreds of nonprofits on different issues, and I am so excited to jump into a conversation with you today about how we can serve nonprofits as far as community engagement and social permitting offerings at Saxum. 

Oh yeah, absolutely. I’m looking forward to diving into this. I was reading through the website and saw social permitting, and I was like, what on earth is social permitting? 

I think it sounds scarier than it is, but social permitting is just kind of our unique offering here at Saxum. It’s a process of engaging the public to gather their support.

When you think about community engagement, I think I always like to say that it’s important to design with the community and not for the Community. And so, how do you ensure that the community that you secure their buy-in when you’re engaging in a process? And I think I mentioned that many nonprofits sometimes would be in a room, a conference room, and they want to develop a plan. It’s a communications plan or a stakeholder engagement plan. They want to start the plan from the beginning till the end without ever talking to a member of the Community, so social permitting is a process that we’ve designed that helps different entities. Whether you’re a nonprofit or a company that’s building, an organization is a philanthropic organization, we talked about the gathering place and building a community park or advocating for an issue like criminal justice reform, or if you’re even constructing a wind farm, just the process that you would engage to ensure that you have that goodwill that Community support to ensure that your project is a success.  

Oh yeah, absolutely yeah, it’s crazy. You talk about the gathering place because I thought I figured out where you live. Oh, they’ve worked on this project as I’ve been to the Gathering place. It’s a cool place in Tulsa, and they come to find out you and your firm have been working on this thing for the better part of a decade to get it put together. 

And it’s just so interesting to find someone that was on the ground floor, or when I look at things like social permitting, I was thinking, do I know from my history that might have qualified as something as social permitting before I heard the term, I was thinking about how seatbelts got introduced into legislation and initially all the Senators and members of Congress? Like we’re not interested in this, this doesn’t make any sense, and they went to the community, largely targeting mothers and telling them the horrors and all the stats on what was happening to kids that were just standing in the front seat, taking a nap in the back window. All these things then showed them the difference in the stats between those that wore seatbelts voluntarily and how much they survived the crash, and then they pre-drafted letters for them to send to their members of Congress and representatives. 

Before they knew it, they had flooding of support into Congress, and I forget which state that served, and then it was passed as a unanimous 100% thing after they had all ignored, like the director. Once you get the community involved, it is easy to get the thing passed. 

How to build a movement

You just gave a great case example of social permitting. So, it’s like, how do you build a movement, right?

I think what was so great about what you just mentioned is it was very authentic and organic to that movement, and we often talk about how your audience doesn’t even need to understand what you do to accept it. It’s just they need to trust you. They need to trust the message. 

They need to understand the goal that you’re trying to achieve, and when there’s passion, it feels very authentic to them. When you rile up moms, you better believe they’re going to make it happen, but I think that’s so unique and dynamic about this; just how do you connect with those audiences of stakeholders and start to make a meaningful change? You know, we have a four-phase approach to our social permitting process.

The first is building awareness. You know you talked about education; you have to educate those stakeholders. And when we talk about the gathering place, you know we started that project with, yeah, it was ten years when we started. 

We didn’t think it would be a 10-year project; I think the construction timeline was four years. But when you’re designing with a community and not for a district, the timeline will expand naturally. So building awareness meant community input sessions and meant going on a listening tour in the community to ensure that we were engaging with all of the appropriate stakeholders.

Travis, you’re familiar with Tulsa; Tulsa is a racially divided city. Everyone knows that we recognize the 100th anniversary of the race massacre in Tulsa, so it’s in the name of the gathering place

Four-step program for the social permitting process

We wanted to make sure that we had a park where everyone felt like they were invited and could come to a park designed for them. But that meant we had to appeal to a wide array of Tulsa, and that took time, and then you move into what we call the activation phase of social permitting. 

And that was a part of the process that I think took a lot of time. It was like, how are we going to get people to come to the park when once this deal opens, and the reality is there were physical barriers? Like not everyone lived close to the park. 

And when we talk about barriers to ensuring that people could come, some of our patrons are low income, so we needed to make sure that there was transportation and easy access, and we had what we called a kid first approach to the park.

We had this neat creative strategy where we identified a kid Ambassador, and her name was Arianna. She was a fourth-grader when she first started with us. But by the end of it, she was no longer in 4th grade. She was getting ready to start high school, which was amazing, but it was nice to see her journey as we were navigating the opening of the park. But Arianna was kind of our spokesperson. She would provide regular updates to the families in Tulsa. She was featured in commercials. And PSAS was very dynamic. She was featured in a music video about the park and bringing kids and families together.

We had what we called a reading tree challenge. There is the largest tree in the park. We created this animated story. The tree only grows leaves when kids in Tulsa would read a book. So, for every book that was read, the tree would grow a leaf, and it was kind of this really neat, animated story and got the kids read 2,000,000 books. And the only way that the park would open was if kids in Tulsa would read books, and that was a great tie to the foundation that was helping fund the park was a lead funder, and so it’s like how does the nonprofit also realize its mission?

Its core mission of early childhood education and making a connection with the park’s opening? And so, it was a community-wide effort. The kids exceeded our expectations, and we were able to incorporate them into the grand opening festivities. Then the fourth phase is advocacy, and the reality is there are lots of different components and opportunities for advocacy?

We wanted people to come back to the park even after the grand opening, and we wanted them to tell their friends that this is a park that is welcoming and that anyone can come and feel like they can bring their neighbors and their friends. And I’ll never forget it. The weekend of the grand opening, we had 30,000 people at the park. We didn’t know the parking capacity because. It’s never been designed before, so it was one of a kind park experience. 

I saw this mother who had a toddler, and she was singing to her toddler. And it was like this special moment for me. I remember I had goosebumps because I thought there were many people there, and if you’re a parent and kids can be a little scary. I don’t know if I would even bring you to know young ones to the park for grand opening festivities.

We had a live remote, and we partnered with the local TV station so that families and Tulsans who couldn’t make it out that day could also be a part of the grand opening festivities and plan a visit. So, we had 100 days of the opening so that we could create touchpoints for families in Tulsa. If they couldn’t make it out to the opening again, but at that moment in time, when I saw the mom assigning to her young child, I thought we had created a safe space. We created a space where she felt like she could come. And share at this moment with her family and the rest of what felt like the rest of Tulsa, even though I know we have more than 30,000 people. 

It was a great moment, and I think that’s what we were hoping to accomplish in that advocacy phase of the project. But those are—the four phases of social permitting. The reality is that there’s so much more to the process and how social permitting works than it’s constantly evolving, and it’s a process and attacks. We love to partner with different nonprofits so that we can design, you know, kind of a unique special permitting experience.  

Yeah, that is cool and launching the role of creating the gathering place.  It was something cool to witness. I’m in Oklahoma City. It s\Was like a 2-hour drive up. 

Yeah, that’s about right.  

Close, it’s not far either, we went up. We’re not opening day people; we’re crowd avoiders. I don’t like to wait for things; other than that, I hate standing around. I’m perfectly capable of wasting my own time. I don’t need anyone’s help wasting my time. So, we went out. We’ve ended up there a few times. Every time we go, tons of people are there really enjoying and experiencing nature and being outside in this park. It is just a great place to be. It’s a great place to gather.  

I love to hear it. 

The importance of hearing from the community

But you know, it wasn’t something that was created overnight, and I think what was so meaningful about the process was there were a lot of community, touchpoints, and opportunities to like hear from the Community, like what do you want out of this park experience and a lot of people are always surprised that it’s free with, except you can purchase food and drink, and even that is affordable.

But people always think that you should be purchasing like an admittance ticket to go in because you know there are water features and there are things that you can be doing, and even the play features you know were created in Europe, and they’re one of a kind. 

They’re the play towers. I encourage adults to go on the play towers. Because they’re that dynamic. There’s like a Zipline; there are things that I think are unique and engaging. They have free concert series, and they do program activation that is interesting and dynamic and different, and things that you probably wouldn’t have seen is in the area. But I think what’s wonderful.

It was designed with the community. The community played a role in helping bring a lot of this activation and the way that it was designed. And it’s a reflection of what the community wanted to hope for. To see in a community park experience.

The history of Black Wallstreet and how to turn a protestor into an advocate

There was so much that you said throughout there. I don’t know if we have enough time to go in and pack it all, but you mentioned the 100th anniversary of the massacre. If those who aren’t listening are not familiar, go local to look up Black Wall Street in Tulsa.

They worked hard to create their wealth in the South, and it got taken away from them. And then there’s just a ridiculous massacre. Some things have happened recently for those who are still not familiar with why people are mad in this country. Would they try to make it on their own? And get taken away from them.

You are a first-generation American. I know you don’t feel that way because your parents came over at a certain time, but I understand what it’s like to be displaced. I moved 50 times in my life, 36 times before I graduated high school, and I remember getting to the point. I was in Oklahoma in my house longer than I had lived in any other place, and it’s just a different feeling. If you’ve never had that before, and it was just crazy, I had to join the Navy to get more stability in my life, which is just a whole other topic.  

Travis, I’m so glad you brought up Black Wall Street. I would encourage listeners if they ever want to plan a visit, visit the gathering place and visit Greenwood Rising, a museum designed by the same architects who designed the 9/11 memorial.

It is on Black Wall Street, so Greenwood rising is the museum’s name. Talk about the race massacre and what’s beautiful about that experience at the end of your visit.  But they talk about how you can contribute and help support Black Wall Street and the businesses working to rebuild Black Wall Street. And you know you talked about economic empowerment and the black businesses working to rebuild what was once very strong. And the viable economic engine in Tulsa.

We must acknowledge and recognize that, and I think that’s what we see more and more, is that when we think about the social permitting process, there are a lot of projects. You know these placemaking initiatives are taking place, and it’s very important to make sure that we’re thoughtful and mindful of these community spaces and honoring them.

It is important for us to be engaging in these initiatives and when you’re working on targeted engagement initiatives, not everyone is always going to be happy about your work. Even within the gathering place, I remember we were working on it, we had a large land that was acquired to build a park, and there were a lot of trees on the land, not all those trees were healthy, and so we had to naturally take some of those trees down. And there are a lot of people who are very passionate about trees. And so, we were concerned that there were going to protests, and we’d receive notes like you shouldn’t be building a park if you’re going to be taking down trees. And so, as a communications partner, one of the things that we said is like this is an opportunity to identify who we are. There’s a spectrum right when you think about your targeted engagement audience; there will be some who are strongly opposed to some who strongly support your initiatives.  

But the reality is, this could be an audience you could potentially turn into advocates, so right now, they’re furious about what we’re going to be doing, but these are park goers like these are the ideal visitors to the park. So how do we make sure that we mitigate this before it becomes an issue? So, we had recommended let’s create a tree infographic like this. Let’s talk about it; let’s provide them and equip them with the data and the information about what’s happening.

We created a tree infographic, and we named it the Gathering place for trees, so we wanted them to know that here’s the information that we do have because they didn’t know they didn’t know. A large majority of the trees were diseased. And that we were working proactively to treat those trees and that the ones that we’re getting cut down. We’re going to be repurposed and utilized as a part of the project’s construction. And so, we started to tell a story around the trees. And then they had more information than they ever wanted to know about all the trees. We told them about the number of species that will be reflected in our goal for the park.

We talked to them; we used the tree nursery that we were partnering with; we brought all the spokespeople from our partners to talk about the trees that would be featured.

So, when we released this, we took out an ad in the newspaper and shared this infographic like we open source the infographic. And the people that we thought we were going to protest the park because of how we were going to handle the trees ended up becoming some of our advocates. I was out of it. 

Yes, and. They ended up falling in love with this infographic that we released, but it was. How do you take something that could have become a pitfall for their project and turn it into this major opportunity for dialogue and potential opportunity to turn critics into advocates?  

Yeah, that’s huge. There’s a saying that you can replant trees, but you can’t replant the forest. The built-in hope ecosystem there is not just trees.

But I want to jump back a little bit. We were talking about building it with a community, so for the community, it’s so hard to build in the bubble of a boardroom to create anything under him that’s going to be worthwhile and substantial, and your process is going to be longer. But in the end, you’re going to get a much better project in the product when you bring in the community to build it with you.

I always get contacted by people like I want to start a nonprofit, I want to do this, and I want to do that, and I want to do the other thing, and I ask him, “Is what the Community needs are? What they’re asking for?” And they’re like, “what do you mean?”

“You have a desire to do something and help. That’s great, but is that what’s needed?” I get so many confused faces, like, “aren’t you just happy that I want to start a nonprofit?” It’s like, “I’m very happy that you want to contribute to our community, but what exactly does that mean? What does that look like? What programs are in place? What’s needed? What’s missing? If you haven’t done that kind of assessment, you don’t know where to put your time, energy, and effort.”

And so many people get wrapped up in the fact that they feel like I told them they shouldn’t do it and just go and do it anyway. And that’s not the goal. Something that could have become a pitfall for their project and turns it into this major opportunity for dialogue and potential opportunity to turn critics into advocates. You did with your whole project of bringing the community into the process and getting that social permitting whole process up and going and run.  

Don’t be afraid to go back to the drawing board if the community needs a shift.

I will add that you can’t be afraid to go back to the drawing board. So even as you’re planning, I think what’s social permitting and that our process allows for is if you receive feedback that something is not working throughout the process. A strategy you’ve deployed is not what the community needs or the Community needs have changed because we know things are changing every day now. And you’re receiving, constantly, because of the way that we communicate, I mean. You might receive some feedback that a community priority has shifted because the reality is it took a decade to build this park. The needs of a community in a decade can be completely different, so you must be willing to evolve. You must be flexible and willing to amend and mold and optimize your plan accordingly, which is important. I think that’s something that we did, and that’s the only reason we were not the only but one of many reasons we were successful.  

I mean, that’s the name of the game, right? You either evolve, or you’ve overcome. You know, Blockbuster didn’t involve when Netflix took over. And right now, Netflix is falling off because they’re changing the way they do business, but it’s not in line with what everyone else is doing, so they’re falling off a little bit, and you see this time and again in nonprofits. Many of them that I’ve worked with have older boards that were just fine, but they’re so unwilling or slow to adopt new processes and procedures. We have this very old-fashioned way of thinking that prevents them from changing with the times and becoming flexible and doing what needs to be done. So, it’s great that you’ve been able to do that with your time.

Tell us about your favorite project to do other than the gathering place that you got to work on.  

It’s hard for me to pick favorites, but I’m going to tell you about the most recent. The project I worked on. We just helped open the Bob Dylan Center, which is also in Tulsa, so I feel like I’ve been spending a lot of time in Tulsa. They are making a name for themselves as a destination for music and arts. 

That has also been a longstanding project because they are the center in which they opened that project in an old warehouse. If you’re familiar with the Arts District in Tulsa, it used to be empty lots like parking lots, and the warehouse building used to be called the Matthews Warehouse Building. I remember going through like a hard hat tour of the space and seeing that space evolve into an arts destination has been more remarkable. Still, we just had the ribbon-cutting ceremony last week, and we welcomed what they called Dylan Ologists.

So those are enthusiasts, Dylan, and Bob Dylan enthusiasts from across the world. I was hosting reporters and members of the media from Spain and France to global media outlets. And it’s just really neat to see that center come to life. 

But I will tell you what is interesting about that process and what may be different from what we did with the gathering place. We are trying to change the process options, and some people think that when you talk about Bob Dylan, their relationship with Bob Dylan is very different.

Some people think he’s no longer living, and we must remind them like only easy living. He’s still on tour. He’s still active, building an archive that’s being featured. And so, what I think is interesting about the design of this center is the people. It features an archive right which you. Usually, live in what would be called a museum. And there have been a lot of intentional things done with the center to accommodate this, as the golden icon. And so, it’s not called a museum because a museum is something that I think inside the history, you know something that is celebrating the past, and a center is something that honors what’s living, and I think that’s what’s so amazing is that they’re still collecting and gathering. Items for his living archive have been neat to work on a project that I think still has a lot of life left in it.

In terms of how we’re engaging in this ongoing kind of social permitting experience, I think the biggest challenge for that center moving forward is how do you attract diverse audiences? Because Dylan Ologists is like the biggest Dylan fan, who has followed his career from the very beginning. And how do you make someone who looks like me? Frankly, how can I start to engage in my Bob Dylan journey? I think what has been interesting is I started working on this project. 

Six years ago, it was a six-year journey, but I think what’s fascinating is that I knew I didn’t know of Bob Dylan. But I didn’t know Bob Dylan. And I started to get to know Bob Dylan through my work. And what has been incredible is. There are great avenues to get to know him. He has a fascinating relationship with like the social justice movement.

For instance, his lyrics. He is a very interesting lyricist. He’s very spiritual. He won a Nobel Prize but didn’t show up to claim it in person because of his personality, so I think there’s like a lot to unlock and unveil about this dynamic personality, and so when I think about stakeholder collaboration, I think about how do we, engage new audiences early and often as the center has opened? How do we incorporate their input as we’re working with the center to identify ways to engage those audiences through media, and then how do we change perceptions of who Bob Dylan is In a way that resonates with different audiences, with the hard Kaur, Dhillon Ologists, and hopefully the future.  This center will thrive in 2023 and beyond.  

You know, it’s crazy you’re talking about Bob Dylan because I know he’s a Minnesota boy like I am born in the Great White north up there.  

Oh, that’s right. You mentioned you’re from Minnesota.  

Yeah. Interestingly, Tulsa was chosen as the spot instead of somewhere in Minnesota, but I’m sure he’s got some things up in Duluth.  

I don’t know the answer exactly; I can guess why I think that people don’t realize that Bob Dylan and Woody Guthrie have very close ties. You know he’s a big fan of Woody Guthrie, and the Woody Guthrie Archive is just right next door to the Bob Dylan Center. And so, the George Kaiser film Foundation acquired the Woody Guthrie Archive, which also caught acquired the Bob Dylan Archive. And I think that was probably really appealing to Bob Dylan.

But for his archive to be at home, right next to his, you know, idol, Woody Guthrie. I think that is that there’s something there. He also has a lot of respect for the Native American culture, and Gilcrease Museum was a part of the acquisition of his archive, and they have done a lot too. Respect and honor the Native Americans.  

That’s a great place too.  

Yeah, exactly, and so I think there’s a lot of culture in the preservation of Native American culture and then Woody Guthrie, and I think he thought, “why not, you know, like it’s middle, it’s the center. It’s deemed the center of the universe, it’s the middle of America,” and Bob Dylan is someone who performs across the United States, and so, I think if he was trying to honor like how he always performed. In cities like Tulsa, frankly, and still does so.  

Yeah, I thought I would interview you; we just really turned into a Tulsa highlight show. 

Good, it did; I should contact some of my clients and tell them that they owe me for the promotion. It’s a great city and I’ll tell you if anyone has an opportunity to visit, but I will say from a nonprofit perspective it is considered one of the most charitable cities in the United States. And the nonprofit community is the engine behind Tulsa’s success and growth. And so, when we think about it from a nonprofit lens and perspective, nonprofits or the reasons a city like that is thriving. 

And I think that nonprofits when we think about you, you mentioned in your podcast you guys focus on that and so the reality is, that Tulsa is a great case study on how to help build the city, like how nonprofits can be invested inactive in the growth and development of the city. And that’s what social permitting is. It’s all about engagement, right? So how can a nonprofit work with stakeholders to engage in the process and make meaningful contributions?  

What makes Oklahoma special

That’s so cool; we’ve talked about Oklahoma pretty much exclusively, and I want to continue talking about Oklahoma. Tell listeners some things on a more personal level, like how Oklahoma is so different than Oklahoma is perceived by the rest of the US?  

Yeah, so you know we talked about Tulsa being the center of the universe. I think that Oklahoma is kind of at the center of the United States, and I was born and raised here, but I think I mentioned to you that my parents are from different parts of the world, and they just happen to meet in Tulsa. 

OK, I think that a lot of people try to escape from the state.

Home is in the name. So, we find ourselves coming back. But the reality is it’s a very hospitable state and a lot of people find themselves coming back because I serve on the Oklahoma City National Memorial Museum as a trustee and we talk a lot about the Oklahoma standard at the National Memorial, and I think that’s something that has been embraced by the entire state, and what the Oklahoma standard means is just really holding your fellow Oklahomans to a level that, they’re family.

So, Travis, now that I know that you’re a fellow Oklahoma. And it’s like Travis is family. So, if Travis is in need, then he knows that he can call on me and I think there’s something special about that. Knowing that your fellow Oklahomans are kind of just like they have your back and I’m not sure I’ve ever lived in a state where that’s like common knowledge, but we also have some common values and morals and ethics.

That’s what the Oklahoma standard is all about. That is if there is a community in need if there is an Oklahoman in need If there is anything that ever happens, we kind of rally together and we’re there to support each other to get through it, and so also kind of ties back to social permitting, right? It’s like how you overcome any challenge or hurdle for the common good, the betterment of a community, and I think that’s what makes Oklahoma so special. And you know the great thing is, we’re kind of in the center of the United States, so you can get to any of the coasts easily. It’s just you must be willing to take. I think a connection here or there. There, but you don’t have to do like the overnight from New York City to LA. It’s like. You can make it to the coast and…  

Yeah, yeah. 

…If you start your journey in the morning, you’re there by noon and that’s always really nice.  

It’s so interesting when I talk to people from the coasts, they just rave about the ocean. And then they consider all the whole middle of the country, just flyover country, and then they’re like “well, you know, like the politics” I was like, “yeah, people disagree on politics. People will always disagree on politics but like have you ever talked to the people?” And they’re like, “what do you mean” like “have you ever engaged with the population? Of whatever place you’re talking about?”

 And I know from experience from traveling around the country in all 50 states have been around the world and 12 nations spent a year in the Middle East. People are just people who care about doing well for their household, being reasonably safe and secure, and having a pretty good income if they that kids they want their kids to have it better than they did. 

That’s pretty much standard around the globe and then we add politics or some other nonsense into it. Suddenly it becomes a battleground where you want to connect with people, no matter where they’re from just turn the news off and be a human being, and it’s probably going to be just fine. 

I love that sentiment because the reality is we need more dialogue and one of the programs that I support on the board that I serve on is better conversations it’s all about just how do we elevate the conversations we’re having? If we’re even having a conversation, right? And so, it’s just how can we connect as human beings so that we can build a more meaningful connection.  

Yeah, let’s take out take all the labels out of this stuff. Yeah, I know we feel better if we can just put someone into a box or put a label on them, and then we know how to treat them or behave or react or whatever.

Stop it. Stop putting everything into a little box.

It doesn’t help you. It starts holding you back after a while. Just get to know people, people, generally people they just want to do good things for each other and be safe and secure and grow in this place so Hodo, where can we go to find out more about Saxon and understand you get a free download that helps walk people through what social permitting is, yeah.  

If people will visit our website, you go to saxon.com, and you will find the social permitting eBook you can also contact us for more information. But Travis, it has been such a pleasure getting to know you and having this chat with you, and I hope that this has been beneficial for your audience. 

Oh, I think everyone agrees. Thank you so much for being my guest today! 

Thank you, looking forward to meeting you in person. 

Yeah, can’t wait.

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